A Sustainable Future: Heike Reichelt, World Bank Treasury, on the Power of Capital Markets and Multilateral Impact

Heike Reichelt, Head of Investor Relations and Sustainable Finance at the World Bank Treasury, joins A Sustainable Future.

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Listen to Jason Mitchell discuss with Heike Reichelt, Head of Investor Relations and Sustainable Finance at the World Bank Treasury, about how the bank is driving socio-environmental impact; how multilateral development banks are reshaping their climate-related investments; and the vital role programmes like the World Bank and IDA play in supporting the development goals of middle- and lower-income countries.

Recording date: 31 January 2022

Heike Reichelt

Heike Reichelt is Head of Investor Relations and Sustainable Finance at the World Bank Treasury. Heike is responsible for managing relationships with bond investors, rating agencies and the financial media, and developing new bond products. She has more than 20 years of experience in finance – including with the World Bank Treasury's Reserves Advisory Management Program and at KfW, the German development bank. Heike was recognized for her role in building sustainable capital markets as the 2017 recipient of the prestigious Joan Bavaria Award.
The World Bank Treasury manages the funding programs for the World Bank--otherwise known as the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development or IBRD--and the International Development Association or IDA.

 

Episode Transcript

Note: This transcription was generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and may contain errors. As a part of this process, this transcript has also been edited for clarity.

Jason Mitchell:

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast and I hope everyone they're staying well. If you've listened to this podcast enough, you've probably picked up on my particular interest in development finance. It is in my opinion, an incredibly powerful driver that supports socio environmental impact as well as financial innovation in this area. Case in point, just look at the green bond market with more than half a trillion of green bond issuance last year alone. It's easy to forget that the green bond market has really only existed for the past 15 years, thanks to its creation by multilateral development banks. So after recent episodes with the European Investment Bank and the CDC group, it's only natural to look at the heavyweight among multilateral development banks, the world bank treasury.

Jason Mitchell:

It manages the funding programs for the world bank, otherwise known as the international bank for reconstruction and development, or IBRD, and the international development association or IDA. It's why I'm so excited to have Heike Reichelt from the world bank on the podcast. We talk about what the world bank treasury is doing to drive socio environmental impacts through its funding programs, how multilateral development banks are reshaping their climate related investments, post COP 26, and why it's vital that programs like the world bank and IDA exist to support the development goals of middle- and lower-income countries.

Jason Mitchell:

Heike Reichelt is Head of Investor Relations and Sustainable Finance at the World Bank Treasury. Heike is responsible for managing relationships with bond investors, rating agencies and the financial media, and developing new bond products. She has more than 20 years of experience in finance – including with the World Bank Treasury's Reserves Advisory Management Program and at KfW, the German development bank. Heike was recognized for her role in building sustainable capital markets as the 2017 recipient of the prestigious Joan Bavaria Award. Welcome to the podcast, Heike Reichelt. It's great to have you here and thank you so much for taking the time today.

Heike Reichelt:

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jason Mitchell:

Great. I'm really looking forward to this. So Heike, we have a lot to talk about today, but I'd like to begin with a little bit of scene setting. Let's start out with the role of your team at the world bank treasury. What does that mean in terms of scope and responsibility across the IBRD/IDA issuer programs.

Heike Reichelt:

Okay, thanks. So my team is the investor relations and sustainable finance team, and basically we are responsible for providing information to bond investors so that they can assess their investments in our bonds. That means that we speak to investors directly or through panels at conferences or sales forces at investment banks. We manage the relationship with credit rating agencies so that they have all the information they need for our rating. We also speak to the financial media and increasing also to others who provide information that helps investors with their ESG integration efforts. So I'm referring to ESG research firms. We are also responsible for impact reporting, and we work with others to build sustainable capital markets. So I see it's a long list and it's all revolves around ESG and providing information.

Jason Mitchell:

Thanks, Heike, for that overview. Can you talk about the funding mandate behind each of these, the IBRD and IDA, and kind of give a sense of the size as well as the growth of those programs?

Heike Reichelt:

You mentioned IBRD, and in the capital markets, IBRD or international bank for reconstruction development is known as world bank and has been, and in the markets for about 75 years, raises funds from investors, and then uses those funds for development. So uses those funds to finance projects in middle income countries. We lend to governments in middle income countries so that they can support their development goals. And this means we're financing projects in infrastructure, sustainable transportation, health education, and IBRD raises about 50 billion a year in the capital markets. And the investors are basically anyone who needs high quality liquid assets. Anyone who's looking for AAA rated bonds. And that includes commercial banks, pension funds, asset managers, and also official institutions like central banks and insurance companies. Those are probably the largest buyers of world bank bonds.

Heike Reichelt:

And, you know, like I said, we spend a lot of time talking about ESG and that's because the investors are increasingly focused on that. They want to know how their investment is supporting a positive impact. And IBRD issues, bonds in many different currencies about 25 different currencies, but in terms of volume, it's mostly US dollars and then followed by major currencies, like euros, Australian dollars, Canadian dollars Sterling, and also a mix of maturities and structures. So that's IBRD or world bank in the capital markets. And then Ida, the international development association is relatively new in the capital markets, but has been around for about 60 years. And Ida accessed the capital markets for the first time in 2018, and currently has a funding program about 10 billion a year. And Ida's focused on lower income countries. So providing grants and, and sessional loans to the governments of lower income countries.

Jason Mitchell:

Got it. So I want to start out with this fascinating question and over the last 18 to 24 months through the pandemic, it's, it's been just fascinating to kind of get responses from development, finance institutions, the EIB, or CDC, central banks, even the Bodhi bank and even regulators like the CFTC and, and the SEC but I would put this question to you. What are some of the lessons coming out of the pandemic that you've gleaned? And I'm particularly wondering how the world bank has managed to balance term crises like the pandemic, for instance, with longer term objectives like climate action.

Heike Reichelt:

I'm always a little careful when we talk about lessons learned from the pandemic, because I feel like we're still very much in it. We've gone through various waves in all countries. I think the challenges or the weaknesses in society have really come to the, or have been exacerbated. Now our borrowing member countries of course, are middle income countries and developing countries. And in those countries, we can really see that development gains have been reversed in many areas by years or even decades. And that's in many different areas like poverty or health, but also gender equality. And, and you talked about sort of balancing short term with longer term objectives. I mean, the world bank's strategy is definitely a longer term strategy, but we're supporting our member countries and we have a counter cyclical mandate. So in times of crisis is, you know, when we step up and we can, because we have the support from our shareholders and that's what we've done during this crisis, but we can't leave the longer term objectives like climate action. We can't leave those aside. And in fact, even over the last 18 months, focus on climate and the climate crisis, I think has increased the world bank refocus, focus the strategy with a green resilient and inclusive development grid. We like acronyms. So we're, you know, we continue to focus on the areas that we have been focusing on. There was a repurposing, I would say of efforts for the immediate needs of countries, but definitely not leaving the longer term objectives as side

Jason Mitchell:

To what degree did the pandemic crisis provide, let's call it an opportunity to push the world bank's social focus to the surface. And I'm wondering, what would you point to in terms of evidence for how that manifested, maybe it was through specific kind of shorter term tactical issuances.

Heike Reichelt:

I mean, taking the perspective of our engagement within investors. A lot of what we're doing is we're engaging with them around how we're using the funds. And I really think that, you know, if we take a step back and we think about how investors have been interested in ESG, it really they've been focused on environment recognizing there's climate risk that will affect the value of their portfolios. And that's what they've focused their efforts on. But the pandemic really brought the S in ESG to the surface and the world bank has social goals, right? The world bank's goals are to eradicate extreme poverty and boost shared prosperity, which are both social goals. We're focused on poverty. And the reason that we are so focused on climate is because of the effect it has on people. You can't separate poverty from climate and investors were very much focused on the E, but the pandemic really highlighted the risk that, you know, S brings with it.

Heike Reichelt:

And it's not just risks that are in other countries. We are in a very, interconnected world. The health systems of one country affect those of another. And you think on a company level, the way a company manages health for its employees matters whether they continue to show off for work, how a country manages its education system matters. So the focus on S for investors has come to the surface and the way we offer operated during the pandemic, as we used it as an opportunity to explain to investors how the world bank builds health systems, how we focus on education, how our countries are adapting in during the pandemic and using all sorts of ways to, to reach children when they can't come to school, we engage issue with investors around topics like food chain, supply systems, and so forth. We could notice that investors had a heightened interest in other areas beyond climate

Jason Mitchell:

In 2008, the world bank issued the first labeled green bond. And the implications of that have been manifestly widespread it's catalyze change in behavior and preferences clearly. And I'm wondering, how is this broadening out from that original green bond label, particularly with this focus of ESG as ESG investing has gone more mainstream, how has that evolved? How is the world bank kind of viewing that from an issuance perspective?

Heike Reichelt:

Our first green bond in 2008 was really interesting, I would say, as a story of collaboration between issuers, the bank that brought the investors to us and investors. And it really started with this group of Scandinavian investors mostly Swedish pension funds who were aware of climate risk. They were aware of it as a risk to the value of their investments. And they wanted to find ways to support projects that made a positive difference, but they didn't have their own resources. They didn't have project selection due diligence, that whole infrastructure that the world bank has. And they wanted it to be basically fixed income instrument that fit their portfolios. They didn't want to take individual project risk or country risk, and they wanted it to be tradeable. And so that's how we worked with them together with SEB the bank that collaborated with us on this and brought the investors.

Heike Reichelt:

And the market has grown from that. You mentioned that behavior has changed completely. Our discussions with investors before then were very much focused on just credits and the financial terms of the bond. We talk to them about the world bank and what we do, but they weren't as interested. And our discussions with investors have completely changed. It used to be that if we mentioned ESG, it was pretty much at the end of the meeting. Now it takes up most of the meeting, of course, the good credit and all the financial terms have to be there as well. But there's really, really interesting dialogue. Maybe I can just add a few more words on the labeled bond market. So in the way it's developing, I see that there's a risk that we're focusing too much on making the labeled bond market. Perfect. And this is also lot of the regulation around this, you know, we're only considering the darkest green activities, and we may be losing sight of the goal that we should have, which is to green the entire portfolio or the entire economy, because that's what we should be trying to do is just channeling more funds towards sustainable activities.

Heike Reichelt:

So I really think that labels are helpful as a starting point, but, you know, once climate risks and opportunities and social opportunities and risks are integrated in financial decision making, then we shouldn't be talking about sustainable investing. We should just be talking about investing. So I think that's where we need to be headed and maybe spending too much time on trying to make this smaller portions. Perfect. But those are just some thoughts that I have on this.

Jason Mitchell:

It's pretty obvious that the green bond, I mean, since then has matured very, very quickly. I mean, it's incredible. I mean, sort of the issuance that over the last couple years that people have talked about, what role do you think the world bank plays or wants to play in cultivating sustainable markets in supporting them with some degree of liquidity? I've gotten some sense of this from central banks, like the bank of England, but can you describe that role that the world bank sort of sees itself in founding these markets?

Heike Reichelt:

I mean, we collaborate a lot with others and I would say if I would highlight one initiative, it's the, a command international capital markets association that has worked with them and with others, with other MDBs, with other issuers, with investors, with banks, to come up with principles and guidelines that really help shape the market. And that has really, really helped the market grow. There's other labels as well, right? There's screen bonds and there's other tables. I think what we're spending a lot of time now is having a conversation with investors around how things are interconnected. We actually find it quite difficult to just strip out green when the entire mandate of the world bank is to support sustainable development projects. And we work in many, many different sectors. I talked about them. It's very important to take a holistic approach. And so if you move that onto the approach that investors take, it's not about project finance on our side, it's about sectors or, you know, working with governments and helping them with their entire economies and for investors.

Heike Reichelt:

It really shouldn't be about having portions of their investments that, you know, support sustainable activities or where they're integrating ESG and then portions, where they're not, it should be that they're considering sustainability and ESG just inherently in everything that they do. So we think that you know, labels are super helpful to help investors get a sense of, you know, what the issuers is planning to do, what the issuers approach are. There are frameworks and second opinions and a lot of resources that help investors understand, but liquidity can only be provided if you take a more holistic approach and if the entire strategy or approach or framework or narrative or policies of an issuer supports sustainable activities. And when you have these conversations with investors, it also gives them a sense of where you're going as an issuer. So, you know, if investors ask questions, it helps them understand the thinking of the issuer and where they're headed.

Heike Reichelt:

So, I mean, I would say if I would summarize, you know, how we're working to help build sustainable capital markets, we're doing it because we are a global development bank that has a mandate to achieve positive impact. And we work with our member countries to do that. We issue bonds and try to use our own bonds as a model. So that's labels with reporting with frameworks, and then we engage with investors around, you know, these many different themes that you call a mosaic of themes and have conversations about how, you know, we work with countries and how they can also use their investments, where we say they have the power to invest, to choose what they want to support. And then we partner with others, we're supporting transparency and ESG data as a public good. We have conversations, as I mentioned with investors to increase awareness around certain topics. And then we're part of many different initiatives and groups to try to help move this forward.

Jason Mitchell:

I'm going to apologize, because I'm going to go back to labels because they are somewhat useful, but I guess I'm, I'm trying to understand how the world bank kind of sees this arc of bond issuance labels at the beginning, coming from green bonds. I mean, what are you looking at and where do you see sort of the biggest opportunity you sort of explained the fact that the world bank has it biased to be more holistic rather than more narrow. And it would seem to be kind of a golden period, right? And the world bank has certainly talked about sustainable development bonds. We've got environmental impact, bonds, social impact bonds. What others, what new developments and bond issuance in this area should we watch out for?

Heike Reichelt:

I mean, as I said, the labels are helpful to give an indication of what the issuant is supporting, but they're also, there's this construct behind them where we're not talking about project finance, we're talking about the allocation of equivalent amounts and the real value add is this transparency, this reporting, this, helping investors understand the types of things that their funds are supporting and the impact. So that's this impact reporting. So we're spending a lot of time on that in terms of different bond structures. I mean, we have been in the past working on outcomes. So designing structures where the return to the investor is somehow connected to an outcome and we're continuing to work on that. Those transactions are very structured. They're very bespoke. But again, what we're trying to do is trying to encourage this transparency around impact. Now I have to say there's a lot of attention on ESG data, but sometimes the discussions that we have with investors that are, I would say more along this journey is they have very, very complicated ESG analytics tools, but the data is not perfect. So what's even more important to then collecting the data and analyzing the data is interpreting it and putting common sense to it. And having, like I said, these discussions, conversations, engaging with issuers to see where they're headed. So it's hard in the whole ESG world. Things are not binary, it's a spectrum, it's an evolution. And it's important for investor to understand the entire package.

Jason Mitchell:

What would you say? The kind of the best example of that from the world bank would be I'm thinking of the world bank, world governance indicators, which are sort of the kind of defacto data source for sovereigns.

Heike Reichelt:

Yeah. The world bank has, we have an ESG sovereign data portal that we designed based on questions that we were getting from investors. We had thousands of different data points that were available and what this data portal does is pulls the information together in one portal. So it's very easy to find just a you type in Google, if you world bank ESG sovereign data, you can get to that portal. And the world governance indicators that you mentioned are covered in the G. And otherwise there are not too many, I think about 17 different indicators for each letter ES and G of metrics that our colleagues thought were important to assess a sovereigns, ESG risks and opportunities.

Jason Mitchell:

I like what you've been talking about in terms of transparency, bonds. And I guess I'm, I'm wondering policy makers, particularly in the European union are devising taxonomies. They classify sustainable economic activities. And I'm wondering how do you see the world bank's efforts to align to these sustainable taxonomies, given the increasingly significant or meaningful capital flows that's being generated?

Heike Reichelt:

I mentioned that the entire world bank mandate is to support sustainable activities. And that's also why we've used the label, sustainable development bonds, which in the capital markets terminology are sustainable bonds. That means proceeds support a combination of green and social projects. And we just, the like other MDBs have a very unique mandate. So the reason we exist is because we're supposed to maximize positive impact. We're not maximizing financial profit. And we have a framework, a sustainable develop bond framework that outlines our activities and policies. It outlines our environmental and social standards and how we manage any potential negative effects of projects to the overall benefit of the communities. And we collaborate with other MDBs on reporting and classification. So from a high level perspective, and I've been highlighting transparency throughout this podcast, we're very supportive and aligned with the intention of the EU taxonomy to clarify, you know, what can be considered green or sustainable, an increased transparency, the classification system, however, from the taxonomy is different from what we use, because it's focused on private companies. So I would say that, you know, what we do is completely a with the intention of the taxonomy and it helps, it helps to bring clarity around what's sustainable. It's, it's tricky because what's green and what's not, is not binary. So it's very difficult. I think to come up with a strict definition because it's going to evolve over time.

Jason Mitchell:

I want to switch lines a little bit as well. I can kind of want to go back to cop 26. And I, and I do remember in the lead up to cop 26, the world bank had launched a campaign or initiative to engage with investors around the world bank's climate change action plan and how you work with countries to help them achieve their Paris goals. Can you talk about that? What was the investor reaction like? And more importantly, where did it lead to?

Heike Reichelt:

It was a very interesting initiative and I have to say we were almost overwhelmed by the interest. So about two months before cop 26, we launched an initiative to explain to investors how the world bank's climate change action plan works and, you know, really highlighting this holistic aspect of our climate finance approach. So we wanted to explain how we're mainstreaming climate in all our work. So not just financing, I don't know, renewable energy projects and sustainable transportation projects, but really considering climate in everything that we do. And so we talked to them about how IBRD reviews all projects for potential climate impacts and risks and then designs them accordingly. And since our main purpose is a social purpose. When we look at projects, we refer to climate benefits as so-called cobes. And there's a very specific way that these are determined and measured and that's determined in, you know, all the MDBs have color to decide on that and almost all of IBRD's projects.

Heike Reichelt:

So over 95% of the projects by number of projects has some sort of climate co-benefit in it. So that means that a specific project component using the MDB classification is mitigation or adaptation. And then if you strip out the dollar value of those specific co-benefits that's when you get to about a third. So this is really, it's a holistic approach. And when we were engaging with investors, we brought our colleagues from the climate side. And of course we learned from them a lot as well to explain how they do this. And, you know, they were saying that when we work with countries, we go sector by sector and we identify you know, sectors where countries can, can make changes to help them achieve the Paris goals. There's diagnostic tools that help them recognize the largest sources of climate risk or GHG emissions.

Heike Reichelt:

They help calculate the shadow price of carbon, you know, considering externalities and then come up with lower carbon alternatives. I mean, there's five systems that are responsible for more than 90% of carbon emissions. And I'm sure you're aware of these it's energy agriculture land use and water and in city is transport and manufacturing. So having diagnostic tools that look at all those areas, as well as others. And when we talk to investors, we often use the example of a school project to explain the, the holistic approach and also how we calculate these climate co benefits. Because let's say you have a school project where you're building a school, you're building a curriculum and you know, you can look at that building as a, a building for a shelter during a disaster, you can build climate education in the curriculum. You can have solar panels on the roof. You can make sure that you're careful about potential flooding or reforesting your the school, things like that. And then only small, all parts of that will be added up for these climate co benefits

Jason Mitchell:

At cop 26 multilateral development banks were an important, almost integral element during the negotiations among other things. The world bank itself allocated 35% of its financing for climate related investments and recommitted to no new coal power plant built. That caught quite a number of headlines that said, because I do want to be fair. The world bank also received some degree of criticism that it's frankly not doing enough, but I understand this is an over simplification in some ways, could you pull back the curtain a little bit in this whole process and maybe talk about the trade offs, the complexities and other aspects that are often overlooked,

Heike Reichelt:

You know, in our discussions with investors and that's who we normally talk to. But also more generally, we often realize that some of the messages of how the world bank works with its member countries are well understood how complex things are and also how much we're doing isn't recognized. So we are the single largest provider of climate finance, developing countries, and that of course includes mitigation and adaptation. So more than half of the total and more than two thirds of all multilateral provided adaptation finance is provided by the world bank group. Now I mentioned earlier that we're owned by 189 countries. So all strategies, projects, country programs, everything, the environmental social safeguards are approved by our board and we're financed by our member countries. So what we do and how much we can do is really based on our financial resources provided by our shareholders. We definitely have to make sure that we keep our AAA credit rating so that we continue to serve our clients in the best possible way. So it's based on our financial resources and also international consensus as agreed by our shareholder owners.

Jason Mitchell:

One of the most interesting things for me is this topic around catastrophe bonds. And so the positive impact that they can provide. And to that point, the world bank has increasingly issued climate extreme weather related and pandemic related catastrophe bonds. In fact, two recent issues include 185 million bond to provide Jamaica financial protection against losses from named storms for three Atlantic tropical cyclic seasons. And there's another one, a 485 million bond that will provide Mexico protection against losses from earthquakes and named storms for four years. How do you see the cat bond program growing as an insurance alternative, especially for many of the world's poorest countries.

Heike Reichelt:

I think cat bonds are a great product that we have and, you know, interest is growing. And I see how carefully you worded the question and it's very important because the bonds are very specific in what they support. They have to be it’s a financial product has to be defined very carefully. So we've been issuing more cat bonds to help countries that are affected by weather related or other defined events like earthquakes or typhoons and countries can use cat bonds as part of their disaster risk management strategies. It's like insurance against the financial risks that come from these specified disasters. And really, as we're seeing, you know, more volatile weather due to climate change, we're also seeing more countries developing broader risk management strategies. And it also includes this type of insurance. And we also saw that some credit rating agencies have explicitly noted cat bonds as a credit positive for a country. So we are continuously working with countries to see how cat bonds can help. And in some cases like, I mean the case for the cat bond for Jamaica, the donors supported the transaction by contributing to the insurance premium. So that'll be especially important for the poorest countries. So I think the use of the product is expanding, but there's a long way to go before insurance against other related disasters or earthquakes is just considered as common for countries. As for example, house insurances for individual homeowners.

Jason Mitchell:

It's worth saying, I mean, cat bonds, there's some degree of controversy there has been historically. And I'm wondering how the world bank has sort of balanced, maybe the poll of ticks around the trigger, equitable release of the funds for particularly sort of disaster hit countries. Does that make sense?

Heike Reichelt:

Yeah, it's an insurance product. And as I said it'll be a long time before people consider it just normal to ensure themselves against these weather related disasters as a country, just like we do for homes. Every insurance has to be very specifically defined in terms of what it covers and what it doesn't. And these products are passing risk on to the capital market. So it has to all be documented very precisely. And sometimes it's, it's hard to understand why a bond won't trigger when there has been a disaster, but it might not be exactly how it's defined in the terms. So the products are doing what they're designed to do. It's just, they're designed for very specific purposes.

Jason Mitchell:

How do you see the Ida, which focuses on lower income countries growing its program? Can you speak to the financial model and how issuing bonds and providing grants in particular can be compatible with, as you've said before, maintaining that AAA rating at the group level,

Heike Reichelt:

We've talked a lot about the rural bank about I B R D, but as I mentioned, the beginning, Ida, the international development association accessed the capital markets for the first time in 2018. And Ida has been around for over 60 years and until 2018, it was exclusively financed through funds from its donors and the donors paid in their capital to Ida every three years during what's called a replenishment cycle. So that's how Ida built its capital. And when Ida decided to scale up and leverage its equity, its model evolved into a so-called hybrid financing model, which is quite unique and that's, what's behind Ida's triple A credit rating. So Ida's leveraging the equity so they can scale up two and, you know, raise funds in the capital markets for its activities. The funding program is currently around 10 billion a year, and it will grow from there. The last part about how Ida can provide grants and fund itself through bonds. And the answer to that is because Ida receives funds from donors as part of this hybrid financing model.

Jason Mitchell:

So Heike final question, I'd love to know. I mean, you know, since you are a leader recognized in terms of building sustainable capital markets over the last 20 years, I'm wondering because we have a pretty large contingent of students, people get in their PhDs or masters on this program. What advice would you lend them that you've sort of picked up over the past decades of your own career?

Heike Reichelt:

You know, interesting. We've been working more and more with students over the pandemic. I think the virtual world we're working in now have made that easier. So I did some lectures and it's really interesting to see how universities are just integrating sustainability, sustainable finance into their academics. I mean, this is something that also was touched on in some of the podcasts, the way financial models are constructed. It's hard to come up with an accurate price because there's a lot of external costs that are not internalized because investors make decisions around risk and return. And what I think investors or students who are universities now can just learn or should bring is a different culture, a different way of thinking about finance, not as black and white, not as rigid, but as flexible. And in terms of how students, you know, where they decide to, to look for jobs, just looking at things that are diverse and different and not just in one lane, maybe so trying to get exposure to many different things, if they can travel and, you know, get sort of on the ground experience, if this interests them. In other other cultures, maybe developing country, I think is an excellent way to learn and just try to have a very broad view and not try to replicate. I would say the rigid financial models of the past.

Jason Mitchell:

Great, that's a very good way to to end it. So it's been fascinating to discuss what the world bank treasury is doing to drive socioeconomic impact through its funding programs, how multilateral development banks are reshaping their climate related investments, post COP26, and why it's vital that programs like the world bank in Ida exist to support the development goals of middle and lower income countries. So I'd really like to thank you for your time and thoughts today.

Jason Mitchell:

I'm Jason Mitchell co-head of responsible investment at Man Group here today with Heike Reichelt, head of investor relations and sustainable finance at the world bank treasury many, thanks for joining us on A Sustainable Future. And I hope you'll join us on our next podcast episode. Thank you so much Heike for your time today.

Heike Reichelt:

Thanks so much. It was really, really nice. I enjoyed talking to you.